Emily Post described etiquette as the outward manifestation of one's innate character and attitude toward life. She would probably roll over in her grave if she were to witness how the rules of etiquette have changed over the years. CHAT ROOM CHATTER
Top, left to right: Mona Wood: 39, owner of Ikaika Communications, born and raised in Hawaii, single. Kristin McEntee: 29, artist coordinator for the Honolulu Symphony, raised in North Carolina, a seven-year Hawaii resident, divorced. Sonya Carrasquillo: 24, makeup artist at Malama Spa, born in New Jersey, but raised in Hawaii since she was 5, single. Cameron Kahanamoku: 44, self-employed contractor, born and raised in Hawaii, single. C.J. Colburn: 35, tennis coach, originally from Arizona, a 4-year Hawaii resident, single. Justin Iwase: 24, student majoring in real estate, born and raised in Hawaii, single.
Yesterday, we wrote about the lost art of manners, which some etiquette teachers are trying to revive through classes for children. But even adults need help. Here, we drew together a panel to talk about manners, or the lack thereof, that can trip people up in life, work and relationships.By Nancy Arcayna
narcayna@starbulletin.comChivalry may not be completely dead, but in some instances the dying embers are apparent. Today's multicultural society leaves us to consider others' feelings, upbringing and expectations, without presenting a norm to follow.
Women's liberation may also be one of the contributing factors that lead men to believe it is no longer necessary to pamper a woman. After all, some males I've known have even gone as far to say, "Why should I open the door for you, are you crippled or something?"
Although women have gained the luxury of equal rights, many still want and expect to be pampered. A recent chat on manners and expectations led to some debate between the sexes.
Here's what they had to say:
On general niceties
"Sometimes when I'm walking, guys will move to the (street side, a protective move). I didn't even know they were supposed to do this," said Mona Wood, 39. The rest of the group seemed unfamiliar with the practice, as well. Justin Iwase's response: "What, am I supposed to die first?"Iwase, 24, said he opens car doors and similar niceties. But most dating scenarios for the 20-something crowd are in group settings, he said. "It's more comfortable for everyone," he said, while eliminating formality.
"There is an extreme," Wood said. "I don't expect a guy to throw his nice coat over a puddle.
"But, because I'm older, I tend to favor the old-fashioned values. I even like when a guy picks up the tab. But I also like a guy to be open-minded, so I guess I want the best of both worlds.
"Guys think because I'm independent and run my own business, that I don't want niceties -- there is a lot of confusion. I like to be cared for and treated like a lady."
Kristin McEntee, 29, agreed, saying she likes "to have her cake and eat it, too." Having grown up in the South, she was accustomed to gentlemanly gestures. "Men my age just aren't like that anymore. It's like they don't even get taught the basic rules of etiquette."
DENNIS ODA / DODA@STARBULLETIN.COM
The members of our chat group may have had differing opinions on the details of polite society, but they were able to laugh about them. From left are Cameron Kahanamoku, Mona Wood, Kristin McEntee, Justin Iwase, C.J. Colburn and Sonya Carrasquillo.
C.J. Colburn, 35, believes that equal rights are grounds for a switch in behaviors. He knows the rules of etiquette but says he chooses not to practice them. "I believe it's a choice. I strongly believe in women's lib, so everything should be 50-50."
He doesn't like the fact that women have the same opportunities as men yet still expect men to pay for everything. "If I open her car door, she should reach over and open my door."
Wood agreed: "He shouldn't be out there playing with the keys. It's stupid for a girl to be sitting there waiting."
Cameron Kahanamoku, 44, added: "If it's one-sided, it's over. If I'm doing nice things for them, they should at least do a few nice things for me."
Just like the women, the guys said they keep score, too. "I love cooking dinner for a woman and then staying in and watching a video," Kahanamoku said. "But I expect her to bring something. I love getting flowers."
Colburn said, "I try to do nice things, but I don't like when they are expected." He admits that he will step out of his boundaries if he knows it offers him an edge. "It's not my nature or who I want to be, but I'm respecting what she expects. I try to accommodate but would rather be with someone who accepts me the way I am."
He prefers the grand gesture to small things like opening an elevator door. "We all need to stretch a bit sometimes," Colburn added, stating that he would not hold open the elevator door unless a woman had her arms full. "The more attracted I am to a woman, the more things I'm going to do for her, from opening doors to making sure she is warm."
Sonya Carrasquillo, 24, said: "It's not a huge deal when a guy holds open the elevator or lets me go first, but it does show that he is thinking of me. I have a lot of friends who don't want guys doing things for them. Many girls feel really independent."
DENNIS ODA / DODA@STARBULLETIN.COM
While some men in our chat room resented footing the bills on dates, Mona Wood said most women resent some men's expectations of more than a handshake at the end of an evening. "I'm good company," she said. That should be enough.
She added another factor: "There are a lot of kids from single-parent homes, and they may not have had someone to teach them those things."
Wood sees some general manners disappearing. "My car broke down a couple months ago, and I needed to catch the bus," she said. "Nowadays, the younger generation doesn't get up to let older people sit down. Pregnant ladies and older people were hanging on for dear life. And people say 'excuse me' half as often as in the past.
Colburn's pet peeve is people who don't show up on time.
Kahanamoku agreed, saying, "If someone is going to be late, they need to call me an hour before the time that they were supposed to arrive." He said a 15-minute grace period for traffic or unusual circumstances is allowed. "Anything longer than that makes me feel disrespected," he said.
Carrasquillo disagreed. "Even if you do show up late, it shows you wanted to be there," she said. People who don't call at all are worse, she said, noting she'd been dating a guy for a couple of months before he stood her up. "He was supposed to show up at 10 p.m., and I stayed up waiting. I didn't want to call and nag him. He called the next morning drunk and apologizing. I never returned his calls after that."
On table manners
Everyone seems to hold a different threshold to actions they find acceptable at dinner or in a social setting. Some people can deal with the Neanderthal who pokes his meat with a fork and starts chomping or cuts up everything on the plate into little pieces. Others have high standards when it comes to dining.
Wood said it's important to note that etiquette varies with different cultures. "I lived in Japan for a while, and women used to cover their mouths while eating, while men are belching and picking their teeth at the table," she said.
"I think the whole beauty of being married or in a relationship is getting to the point where you can completely be yourself," Carrasquillo said. "I would like it if a guy felt comfortable enough that he could even fart in front of me. That would be cool."
McEntee said there are basic principles that can't be compromised. "Eating with your mouth open is unacceptable," she said. "It's the small things that irritate you, that eventually turn into big things. My ex-husband used to make noises after eating, with the excess food that was stuck in his teeth. And I just don't want to hear someone belch at the table."
Kahanamoku also claims to be a stickler when it comes to table manners. "When I was growing up, during dinner you needed to be on your best behavior," he said. "We needed to keep our mouths closed when chewing, couldn't talk with our mouths full, and if a woman got up to leave the table, we would stand up."
Kahanamoku applies the same standards on his dates today. "I've known women who sucked their teeth." He was appalled when a date started to slurp and make sucking noises after finishing her steak. "I stopped her and asked her if she was OK."
Yet all the men agreed that they prefer to see a woman chow down rather than pick at a salad. "I want to see a woman enjoy her meal as much as I do," Kahanamoku said. "It's hard to watch them dissect their food."
Wood said, "I don't expect a guy to know which fork or spoon to use, but you don't want them to embarrass you in front of a boss or client by eating like George Costanza on 'Seinfeld.'"
Eye contact
In some Asian cultures, eye contact is not the norm. While some people may find it rude to look away in conversation, we need to remember that we live in a melting-pot society."There is definitely a lot less eye contact here," Colburn said. "When you walk past someone and they don't look at you, it's hard to tell if there is any chemistry. You have to be assertive here.
"On a date, if a girl is not looking at me when we are talking to each other, I feel that she is not interested in what I have to say, and I won't ask her out again," he said.
Yet assertiveness could be perceived as rude or pushy to some.
"In Asian upbringing, you are taught to keep quiet," Iwase said. "The local guys are quiet because they don't want to draw attention to themselves."
Rude occurrences
Nightclubs can be breeding grounds for rudeness, according to the group. "Maxim magazine said that you should never ask a woman out when she is in a group, or you will encounter mob mentality," Iwase said."I've seen girls do that," Carrasquillo said. "They snicker and make snide remarks. I feel sorry for the guy who is getting a hand in his face. A guy doesn't deserve to be treated like that, unless he grabbed your ass or did something like that.
"But sometimes a guy will ask you to dance, and if you say, 'No thank you,' he will start yelling obscenities at you."
Kahanamoku said, "I've asked girls to dance at a club, and they have come out with some foul stuff, too."
Sexual etiquette
In today's society, more young woman are feeling pressured because there is more openness and sexual freedom."Lots of girls my age feel that if a guy pays the tab, you owe them," Carrasquillo said.
McEntee and Wood felt that a simple "Thank you" is sufficient at the end of the evening.
"I'm good company," Wood said. "They are paying for the pleasure of my company. What I don't want is some guy that pays for everything, expecting something at the end of the night. Once, I rejected this guy, and he started calling me a bunch of names. He said I was leading him on, even though we had only gone to dinner and a movie."
McEntee said: "Ideally, you take someone out to get to know them better. The goal in the end is hopefully to go on another date and pursue a relationship. It has nothing to do with 'What am I going to get from this?'"
Colburn said: "Well, you can see why some guys would think that, after spending $80 to $100 on dinner. Guys are expected to ask girls out, so that means we are always paying."
Wood's response: "We have to get ready for the date. We buy a new dress (that could cost more than $80), put on makeup and do our hair. We put a lot into it because we want to look nice. And we are nervous the whole day. Sex should never be an expectation."
Colburn added: "I'm impressed when I go out on a first date and the girl offers to pay. That's when I'll offer to pick up the tab or go Dutch."
Wood and McEntee agreed that it is rude for women to use men to go to nice places. "Those are the bad ones," McEntee said. "If I were asked on a date and was not interested, I wouldn't go. It's not fair to have guys spend a bunch of money if you already know that you never want to see him again."
McEntee feels it is rude to try to hold her hand on a first date or a blind date if she is not asked. "It's my understanding that you hold hands if you are a couple," she said.
Colburn sees nothing wrong with it. "I do it (hold hands) because women are more kinesthetic," he said.
The group agreed that it wasn't rude or disrespectful to ask a partner if they had been tested for STDs.
McEntee said: "When you meet someone, it's uncomfortable to ask them, because it comes across as being rude. But if they don't want to be tested or talk about it, then something is wrong."
Kahanamoku added, "No one should be offended by that request."
Wood said, "It's better to refuse that hour of unbridled passion and choose life."
McEntee said, "Guys seem to think it's OK to literally come up and grab me." She was at a gas station one day when a guy helped himself to her goods.
"All of my girlfriends with big boobs say that guys talk to their chest," Wood said.
Kahanamoku said one of the rudest experiences he encountered was when a date told her friends that he was gay because he didn't make the moves on her. "She had asked me to come up to her place, and I said I couldn't because I had to get up early in the morning." He went to the gym, and two of the girls pointed at him and said, "That's the gay guy."
Bottom line
Women want to be pampered. Men want to be accepted for who they are. "Some guys are impressive on the first date, and it goes downhill from there," Kahanamoku said. He suggests using a slow, steady upward pace.Wood agreed, saying: "A guy wouldn't want to go out with a girl who looks perfect, only to find out her color contact fell out and she was wearing (an enhancing) bra and a wig. You need to show people the good, bad and ugly from the beginning."
The group agreed that honesty about expectations, in the areas of etiquette and beyond, is crucial to relationships.
And priorities change with age, the women said. "Girls are more tolerant of rudeness," Carrasquillo said, due to a combination of malleability and naivete. "When you are in your 20s, the main thing is, 'Is he cute?' In your 30s, it's, 'What kind of job does he have?' And when you get older, you will probably wonder if he's wearing a toupee."
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